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Mathew Steel

Gun Laws

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Firstly, I'd like to emphasize that what I'm about to discuss is extremely controversial but I feel that after the happenings that were reported yesterday, I have to speak about this, and at least try and make a change. Secondly, I'm from the UK, it's easy to assume bias because of this and that's why I plead for you to read all of what I say before replying. Finally, any figures or facts in this post have come from the BBC, a highly trusted source for accurate information as they are considered an academic source.

 

Yesterday, on the 11th of June, 2016, there were two reported incidents of gun violence. 51 people (in total) reported to have been killed yesterday by guns. Of course, I'm sure you're all aware this isn't the only incident of reported gun crime in America over the last few years. In 2015, there were 372 reported mass shootings in America, killing 475 and wounding 1,870 people. There were also 64 incidents of school shootings in 2015 (however this does include incidents where nobody was hurt). A report in 2012 shows that 60% of homicides in America were done by guns, compared to 31% in Canada and 10% in the UK. I'd like to point out that Canada has stricter laws on gun ownership than America, and there is a decrease in percentage just from that.

 

Let's discuss some viewpoints. The most common and irritating one is "if it wasn't a gun, it would be a knife." This statement implies that if someone wanted to kill another person, they would do so no matter what. However, this is terribly untrue. If there were 100 people in a room, completely unaware of any violent situation to come, and all of a sudden one man with a gun started firing bullets at these people, do you really believe an equal amount of people would be killed if this was done with a knife? It's nonsense. Guns make killing people easier. Ever wondered why we don't use swords in wars anymore? Guns are better at killing, without being stopped.

 

I think there is a big misunderstanding to what people mean when they say, "gun laws need to change." We aren't saying guns need to be banned, we are saying to own a gun, there needs to be far more thorough background checks. Right now in the US, there are 10 factors that come into acquiring your firearm license. Not one of these factors include, not having any mental disability. Whilst discrimination is illegal and wrong, in my eyes, stopping someone who is mentally unstable from owning a weapon, shouldn't be wrong. We talk of security and how important it is, this simple step would reinforce safety by a mile. Even then, once you have a license and a gun, you can legally sell that weapon to a friend (who also has a license). Little things like this cause issues when it comes to safety.

 

I'm sure someone is about to throw the argument "well we can defend ourselves." Whilst that is true, nobody should need a gun to feel safe. Here in the UK you are allowed to defend yourself using "any means necessary." This means, in the event of an attack, you may use any reasonable force to save your life. If you so happen to kill the attacker in the process, 9 times out of 10, the justice system will be in your favour. Nobody expects you to sit idle and accept violence if it's thrown at you. But the idea that a weapon should be carried around 24/7 to feel safe in your own country, says a lot. And I'm sure at some point someone will argue that it's the people behind the guns, well it's funny to me how those people seem to be living in America.

 

Please, people of the USA. I am not stereotyping or generalising. I'm fully aware that there are a number of American citizens who want to change the law on guns. However, it's sad to see that these people are a minority. You live in a democratic society. The people, are the ones that make the change. By having stricter laws on guns, you will not only be making history in the present day, you will be allowing more people to have a future.?

 

I understand that many people are very set in their own ways and are unwilling to change. Whether you would call that ignorance or not is up to you. As someone who considers himself somewhat of a sociologist, I won't make that judgement. Before anyone says to me I have no right to decide what happens in a different country, you're not completely right. Sure, I don't have the official right to make that decision. But I do have the right to voice my opinion. Freedom of speech, something Americans are very proud of, yet a lot seem to forget about it when they hear something they don't like. People are scared of change. Yet, isn't the idea that one day, as horrible as it is, a child may die to something that could have been prevented upon a simple majority vote?

 

If I'm to leave you with one sentence. It would be this. As horrible and as dark as it may seem:

 

"If you aren't willing to change to prevent death, you may as well be the one pulling the trigger."

Edited by Mathew Steel

"Gofyn wyf am galon hapus, calon onest, calon l?n."

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To any Americans who want a change, but aren't sure how to do so. Go here -


"Gofyn wyf am galon hapus, calon onest, calon l?n."

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I am sorry for replying without reading everything you wrote, but I'd like to say that if someone isn't able to buy a gun legally, he would be able to get it another way. :( Just look at Europe, how many people are there trading with illegal weapons. I read news about that now and then, and it may be that we see it more frequently, because sometimes it's about firearms made in Serbia (while we were part of Yugoslavia, or recently).

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Eagle, I made a lot of arguments about that, hence why I asked you to read it all. Hopefully you can do so at somepoint and possibly reply with an updated response? :)


"Gofyn wyf am galon hapus, calon onest, calon l?n."

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Don't worry about it. I appreciate that you'll go back to read over it later!?


"Gofyn wyf am galon hapus, calon onest, calon l?n."

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Just can't get over this point. :D :D :D

 

any figures or facts in this post have come from the BBC, a highly trusted source for accurate information as they are considered an academic source.

 

I shouldn't be posting this probably as this is a serious subject, but the BBC is one of the most biased media services we have, particularly on the subject of the upcoming EU referendum.

 

I do apologise if I've offended anyone.


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I'm sorry Chris I can't 100% agree. Whilst with subjects such as the EU I can understand where there would be bias information, however with topics like this, I see no reason for it, and they wouldn't have made up the facts.

 

After all, they certainly beat the Daily Mail.

Edited by Mathew Steel

"Gofyn wyf am galon hapus, calon onest, calon l?n."

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Well, I was commenting on a more general scale rather on this particular topic. ;)

 

It was the general statement I was referring to, not the context:

a highly trusted source for accurate information

 

It is a fairly trusted source, I was just meaning that it's more biased than people think.


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The fields have eyes, and the woods have ears.

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Ahh I see! Understandable but as I said, for this topic, I see them as a trusted source :)


"Gofyn wyf am galon hapus, calon onest, calon l?n."

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Now I read your post to the end. I must say that I didn't know that they don't check if the person is mentaly stable when it comes to giving him the licence. You are right about that, and in my opinion it wouldn't be any kind of discrimination. Same if the person lives with someone who isn't mentaly stable, and who could get access to the gun.

 

Also, we could say that having certain types of fire arms is unnecessary, it's like people need to prepare for their personal war. A pistol should be enough.

 

And yes, the argument "we have guns to defend ourselves" isn't valid enough - at least in urban areas. What would happen if everyone carried his gun when he goes to the town, or to work...

 

And there should be exeptions, like if someone lives "wild". Similar to when someone lives where little people live per km2... It's easy for me to say "call the cops" when I live in a city where cops would arrive in few mins.

 

I will write more about this matter later.,

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And yes, the argument "we have guns to defend ourselves" isn't valid enough?

Exactly. Also, not to be disrespectful, but 372 mass shootings would suggest that the idea of self defence with these weapons is pretty much useless, would you agree?


"Gofyn wyf am galon hapus, calon onest, calon l?n."

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Exactly. Also, not to be disrespectful, but 372 mass shootings would suggest that the idea of self defence with these weapons is pretty much useless, would you agree?

Yes, I do agree. In fact, when someone uses that argument, then he expects from people to bear arms with themselves all day wherever they go, but in that scenario we can only guess how much more victims there would be. Almost every fight could end with worst possible consequences. Or, maybe, this way people would avoid conflicts more then they do now, but I don't think we are ready to conduct that social experiment :p, plus what about those people that don't want to bear arms - they would be left defenseless, and we could also say "why do we have police anyway?"...

 

Still, regarding USA (Crusader, I am sorry, I am sure that you were talking about this last time, but I wasn't reading carefully at that time, I was busy), I do have feeling that USA do want to put control over those stuff, but there are some of the states that are resisting. And then, when it comes to that resistance, it's not out of nowhere, remember that some areas like Wyoming were settles since some 150 years ago. It's even now rarely populated state, but imagine what it looked like back then when everyone had to rely on himself to survive. Those people who live there now and like grand grand grand grandsons of those people (only four generations ago), while I understand that even now guns may be necessary for them to feel safe depending of where they live. Maybe we could say similar thing for the tough southerners. :)

 

What I want to say is that any civilized country should go towards what you're talking about, but at this moment I feel that they would feel like helpless lambs if someone took away their guns over night, and that something like that would only lead to making small workshops which would be making guns in some basements illegally. And to some point, it is a good thing for society "not to be weak", but this is a story for another day.

 

 

And yes, I don't know if pistols are an issue here actually? I believe that in those cases weren't used pistols, but guns such as M16, or Uzzi, or AK47? I am mentioning this because, while I see why someone had a need to own a gun, I don't see why would someone need to have a gun like this, and I think that in USA people can buy those legally. I think that those should be only used by military.

 

 

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot about another thing... USA is a large country, and we often hear about sad things like the one you mentioned, but still - it is not the case that those things don't happen in Europe. Look at the case with Serbia - we do read an article now and then about a man who snapped and killed several neighbors, like five of them. And then you consider that Serbia have about six million people (not counting Kosovo and Metohija), and guns here are not so easily acquired - at least not legally. Also, those cases don't always have something to do with the war 20 years ago, and it's my opinion that a man in Germany can acquire an illegal gun as easily as in Serbia, as there is a lot of scum from Kosovo (and some other former Yugoslav republic, I don't want to offend someone from Kosovo) who trade with guns. And, once again, I am sure that those guys who trade with weapons are only from countries around Serbia, but it's only that I am familiar with those cases. Also, those guns would be brought there from anywhere.

 

And about what I mentioned before - people not wanting to feel like defenseless lambs... It's not that I can't understand that beside all immigrants who come from war areas, or areas with high crime rate. Also, far from that that I want to suggest "don't accept immigrants", I only think that countries shouldn't keep those ones who don't want to work. Hehe, who knows, maybe I myself move to another country some day. :P

Edited by EaglePrince

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I understand your points. Again, I'd like to emphasise I'm not generalising here. I know that not all Americans agree with the guns, but it's clearly a majority that do, as otherwise, there would be laws in place. The USA is a democratic country. Laws change depending on a majority vote, hence the reason Obama cannot simply go off his own ideas and put the laws in place.?

 

Yet, each time there is an incident, I feel like I'm fighting a lost battle. No disrespect to anyone but the impression I get from the majority of America is that they are very set in their own ways. Which is fine, that's not necessarily a bad thing. However, it does irk me.?

 

In a country that is so well established, and civilised, there shouldn't be things like this happening so often. It would be stupid to think banning guns will completely stop all gun crimes, it won't. But to say it doesn't work towards improving the situation, is pure ignorance. It's worked in the UK, it's worked in Australia, it's worked in Canada, the only reason it won't work in America is because of the values and norms of that society. Again, no disrespect, but the US like their guns, their freedom, to expect them to put it all behind them in a day, is unrealistic.?

 

You have a good amount of the population supporting Donald Trump for crying out loud! I hate speaking bad of countries as a whole, and again, I don't mean every individual, but it's getting to a point where pride, is becoming more important than protecting human beings. Then, perhaps my own values are causing me to be slightly ignorant and bias, I can see how that may happen. To me, nationalism is pathetic, the scapegoating to Muslims is appalling. I consider myself a morally stable person. I am always thinking of what's right, no matter what needs to be done to reach that level of morality, it should be done.?

 

I do hope that one day, America proves me wrong. That sometime in foreseeable future, the gun laws are in place, and they change their ways. Again, another possibility would be the gun laws go into place and it turns out I was wrong, and if that day comes, I'll accept and admit I was wrong. But until then, my view on this will remain. There needs to be a change. It shouldn't take any more killings for this change to happen. I understand it will take time, but as the saying goes, "Rome wasn't built in a day."

 

EDIT: I really hope this discussion doesn't ruin anyone's opinion of me. I respect all the members of this community but I can get very heated when it comes to this topic. However, I do try to look at both sides and respect different opinions as much as I can. So, if I do offend someone, from the bottom of my heart it is not intentional.

Edited by Mathew Steel

"Gofyn wyf am galon hapus, calon onest, calon l?n."

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In a country that is so well established, and civilised, there shouldn't be things like this happening so often. It would be stupid to think banning guns will completely stop all gun crimes, it won't. But to say it doesn't work towards improving the situation, is pure ignorance. It's worked in the UK, it's worked in Australia, it's worked in Canada, the only reason it won't work in America is because of the values and norms of that society. Again, no disrespect, but the US like their guns, their freedom, to expect them to put it all behind them in a day, is unrealistic.

Well, that point of view is not so unfamiliar to me. I saw that that kind of opinion usually have those who like guns, they are always like "guns don't kill people, people do", or "people are afraid of guns because they didn't have enough contact with them". I have also seen so many posts on 9gag like "I left a gun in front of my front do facing the street, and it didn't kill anyone", which seems as a pretty stupid example to me. Well, those are simply not true, look at example of my father - he hates when someone hold a knife on the table, he's always like "put away that thing when we're talking!". I guess it's pretty good example that no knowing guns isn't the issue.

 

You have a good amount of the population supporting Donald Trump for crying out loud! I hate speaking bad of countries as a whole, and again, I don't mean every individual, but it's getting to a point where pride, is becoming more important than protecting human beings. Then, perhaps my own values are causing me to be slightly ignorant and bias, I can see how that may happen. To me, nationalism is pathetic, the scapegoating to Muslims is appalling. I consider myself a morally stable person. I am always thinking of what's right, no matter what needs to be done to reach that level of morality, it should be done.

Just don't judge Americans for this. People fall for stories like that, and politicians know that. Not entire people, but majority does, and that is enough for them. Keep in mind that if you control the media you could brainwash any people into anything - they may even be aware of what you're doing, but you would still succeed. I guess that is one of the reasons why there are nations which don't like each other. During nineties our news were telling one thing, and some others news tell the opposite to their people, and both justifying the actions of their side. Most people believe it, and many take it emotionally. Just look at this - Serbia is a relatively poor country, and people doesn't live so great, and yet many politicians collect their votes with "Kosovo is Serbia" story. I mean, what the f***, if they don't want to live with us, let them go, and let's just see how can we live better for once. :)

 

But still, keep in mind that you should care for your nation. But by that, I don't mean on how someone was born, I mean on preserving the way you live, and preserving your identity. In history, there were times when people had to stick together, and if they don't (or if they lose a war), they could all end up badly (being poor or worse). Now we have a short period of peace in Europe, but we should all work together to keep it that way, and one thing that we have to do for that is to be strong and united - which does require people to be bonded by their nationality. But, by nationality I don't mean on what is your father, but more on something like in USA - "if you have American citizenship, then you're an American". I am not a Serbian, but I like the fact that I am accepted here, and here I belong. (If I move to another country, I hope they would accept me as well, as I would accept any other people who would want to come here. Only I would expect for those new guys to act like he's one of us.)

PS. damn, this paragraph is confusing, maybe I should delete it... :)

 

And I hope Americans won't prove us wrong about this matter, because that would mean something terrible happened somewhere. :D

 

And no need to worry about that, this is where we discuss about stuff like this, and you're not saying anything bad. From what you wrote here I can only conclude that felt bad for what happened in US, and you felt even worse realizing that something like that wouldn't happen if laws and customs in US were different.

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Now we have a short period of peace in Europe

Do you honestly believe that? With all the terrorism that has been going on recently. I don't mean that in an arrogant way. To me, there hasn't been real peace in Europe in a long time. Don't get me wrong, we're not at war, we can live our normal lives, but we are far from peace.

But still, keep in mind that you should still care for your nation.

Of course you should. What I don't want to do is forget about others. I'd say a majority would disagree with me here. However, we should be helping the people that need our help. I feel that we have gotten to the point where we have stopped caring about each other. Sure, we have charities, and individuals doing wonderful things to help people, but as a whole, we've become a selfish world. And I understand it, I do, it's hard to trust anyone these days. But resorting to "building a wall" to block out an ethnicity and religion, that isn't being cautious, that's discrimination.

 

 

As for the gun debate. I feel that I've said all I've wanted to say. There isn't anything I can do on the matter except say my part and hope to influence people to make a change. I hope sometime in the near future the gun problem gets better, but personally, I can't see it happening.

 

EDIT: I did a bit more research into the gun debate a few minutes ago. Does it shock you that congress will not allow the centre for disease control, study gun violence. Says a lot. Also, people who are known ISIS sympathisers are allowed to be put on the "no-fly" list, but because of the NRA, they aren't allowed to be stopped from buying a gun. Meaning that person can walk into a gun store and buy as many guns as he wants, without him being legally stopped.

Edited by Mathew Steel

"Gofyn wyf am galon hapus, calon onest, calon l?n."

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Well, yes, when it comes to terrorism you are correct. However, until seventy years ago there used to be a war in each part of Europe every now and then. Just look at how many wars were in Central Europe during nineteenth century. It's not that we suffer too much, people in Europe live pretty well considering what was the case 150 years ago, and it is less likely that someone is going to die for his country.

 

Regarding the wall, it is not that I support that certain candidate, but I don't think that he was telling about legal migrants, he was speaking about illegal ones, and I must say that I don't see an issue with that. Also, when we look at Europe, I think that European countries should accept only those who are going to be loyal to their new country, and those who are willing to contribute to the society they want to be part of. It is not discrimination in any way, no countries tax payers should work their asses only for their country to give away money to those who come to you as refuges (or should I say "refuges"). It is very well known here there there are people who move to Germany, ask for asylum, get some money from them, and then come back with that money after they get rejected. And no, they wouldn't be rejected, I am sure about that, if they were willing to sit down, learn the language, and find a job.

 

Also, I don't think that we live in a caring world today. We live in a world where someone will help only because of some interest, as always we have always been. There are exceptions, but this is my opinion.

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I did ?just try to post some views that I saw in some comments from Facebook posted by Americans, on a status relating to the Orlando incident. Some of the comments really gave me hope about the situation. A lot actually. But others not so much.?

 

As for Donald Trump, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. He's an idiot in my eyes. He's sexist, backwards and indiscriminate. From a perspective of someone who isn't living in the US, Obama has been the best thing that's happened to the country in ages. It's a shame he's coming to the end of his presidency. The refugee situation is something for another time really. It's easy to talk about illegal immigrants and say that it's wrong, but you also have to keep in mind that some of these people are genuinely fleeing from war, and if they can't get away, then surely you can understand why they would "sneak" into the country without permission. Yet again, I am fully aware that some of these people are also bad people blending in with genuine refugees. I'm not ignorant, I see why people react the way they do. It's just a shame that the outcome of this is scapegoating and moral panic.

 

Also, I don't think that we live in a caring world today. We live in a world where someone will help only because of some interest, as always we have always been. There are exceptions, but this is my opinion.

 

I completely agree. Human nature has become selfish. Sure, people who have already experienced socialisation are probably going to remain the way they were nurtured. For example, I won't become selfish due to popular behaviour, I was taught to look out for others and I will remain that way. This is true for so many people. But I feel, unless we raise our next generation properly, the situation will only become worse.


"Gofyn wyf am galon hapus, calon onest, calon l?n."

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Of course, I don't say that you should close your door to those people who have nothing left, but only not to let your good will to be misused. It is one thing when someone wants to have another chance, but it is entirely different when someone comes to Europe only to use those benefits. There are people who go abroad, and they don't want to work there, because they can get the money anyway. You see how those people who travel accross Balkan don't stop in Macedonia, Bulgaria or Serbia to ask for asylum? That is because we have little money for ourselves, and we are not able to give them what people of Western Europe can. There are few of them who asked for asylum in Serbia though, and as far as I know - they were granted it. They don't want to come to any safe land, they want to come to a rich safe country. But of course, from their perspective, it is better for their own future to try hard to get into one of those richer countries - you work here in Serbia, you work there in France, and you don't earn the same money here and there. And in the end of this paragraph, don't get me wrong, just as I want to be respected by your people, so I respect those people who are fleeing from war.

 

And yes, I agree, we have said everything about this matter about guns. I would also add that in my opinion it is not majority of Americans who support the current gun laws in the USA. Many say it opinions like that are promoted by companies which produce weapons and sell them... But that is also a different story.

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Ah I see your point. Well I agree, if people move to our country they should work. Granted, they should have a few weeks to get that job but it should be obtained early on. Here in the UK though, there are many British people that will say "people are stealing our jobs" yet won't even get up and look. They'll happily sit there accepting benefits without a care in the world for looking for a job.

 

I don't believe that's exactly true however. I believe it is popular opinion when it comes to the gun laws. Yet, I believe this is due to misunderstanding. The biggest argument I see is that they don't want to lose their guns, that isn't what the gun law is supposed to do. It's supposed to give the government more control over what people can do with their guns and who is allowed to purchase the guns and earn a license i.e. not people with mental illnesses.?

Another one, I've heard from the US is "we have a big mental illness problem." Well, with all respect, so does every other country, 6-10% of the UK suffer from mental illness. We don't have this many issues. Clearly the guns are the issue and the way their given out.


"Gofyn wyf am galon hapus, calon onest, calon l?n."

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I agree, and if a country have that issue with mental illnesses, then it is even more important to put this matter under control. I'd only add that here is unclear what one considers by mental illness, but that doesn't much at this point.

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It's easy to talk about illegal immigrants and say that it's wrong, but you also have to keep in mind that some of these people are genuinely fleeing from war, and if they can't get away, then surely you can understand why they would "sneak" into the country without permission.

 

I'm afraid this this isn't quite correct. 80% of all migrants who entered the EU last year, according to the EU's own figures, were economic migrants, and this year the figure so far of people entering the EU illegally is 30 times higher than last year. And only 17% of the genuine refugees last year actually came from Syria. Others came from countries such as South Africa, Bangladesh .etc. I think the figure for this in Germany is 816,000 economic migrants. Not only do they allow people to claim asylum from fleeing war and persecution, which in my opinion, is justified. But in March last year they changed the rules of claiming asylum - they're now so wide that virtually anyone can claim asylum from anywhere, whether they're escaping poverty, war, persecution, of just want a better way of life. And we just can't cope with this.

 

For Angela Merkel to just invite hundreds upon thousands of people into Europe, it's utterly irresponsible and has caused a devastating impact, not least in unemployment. Until last year unemployment in Germany alone was at 2 million, it's now at 3 million and rising.

 

But to allow virtually anyone to enter the EU, people who don't even have passports or any kind of identification, is just ridiculous. The head of Interpol has recently admitted that last year, up to 5,000 Jihadis could have managed to enter the EU because of the open-door immigration policy. We've already seen how terrorists who were involved in the Paris and Brussels attacks managed to sneak back into the EU posing as migrants without passports.

 

Here in the UK though, there are many British people that will say "people are stealing our jobs" yet won't even get up and look. They'll happily sit there accepting benefits without a care in the world for looking for a job.

 

That is not the majority though, it's a minority. Migration in the UK is a very serious issue. The way to combat this, is to reduce immigration to a controlled level (still taking people with particular skills we need) until the jobs are available for people, and then force them into work. To keep allowing uncontrolled migration, especially from the EU does nothing to benefit our country, not least our public services.


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I agree with Chris. I would only like to add this issue about immigrants who don't have their passports - when someone is fleeing from war, he may not even have his passport. I myself didn't have a passport until two years ago (or maybe three, I'm too lazy to check :P ) I think. This thing with passports is not that simple if you want to help those people, but on the other hand - this could have been done in way better way, letting everyone enter freely is the worst possible solution in my opinion. Another thing I would like to point out is that, when someone is fleeing from war, once he has reached a country where there is no war, he has no argument to move to another country unless he was rejected asylum in the country he currently is.

 

Still, maybe they (European Union, or Germany) do want to accomplish something we are not aware about. We know as much as we were served, and if you don't get enough fact, you cannot make the right conclusion. Or, it may be simple as well, who knows...

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I feel like you've misunderstood my intentions when I said that, Chris. My aim was to point out that people generalise. They'll see one, for example, Muslim, commit a crime, then say it's true for all Muslims. Sure, this isn't everyone, but there are a lot who do this.

 

Like I said, I'm not ignorant. I'll happily admit I was incorrect if proven wrong. I wasn't actually aware it was such a large percentage, so I can easily see why people think like that. But if there is something that winds me up, it's people who won't go work, simply because they're lazy or know that they can live off the money of others, and then they put the blame on immigrants coming into our country. From a personal perspective, when a member of my family needed an operation, her surgery was performed by an Indian doctor, a friend of my mother (who also works in the hospital) who came to the country to escape the crappy situation in his own at the time.

 

And also, I wasn't suggesting at all that these people fleeing the country and illegally entering ours is good. Not at all. What I am saying is that people aren't sympathetic. It's morally wrong to assume people do this just to cause trouble, some, not all, are doing so because they are scared and desperate.?

What I am saying however, is that we need to do more.

 

Again, I'm not stupid or naive. Given the current world situation, we can't just give everyone the benefit of the doubt. What I do think, is that the views we have to these people are pathetic, ignorant and wrong. No, we can't change our security and risk damage to ourselves, but what we can do is change our views, so at least we know what is happening is tragic and we wish we could do more, so that we don't come across as robots with no emotion or sympathy.

 

Hopefully I cleared things up, without becoming too confusing. Although, I feel like the purpose of this thread has gone off topic somewhat, I still appreciate the mature discussion.

 

 

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that I probably haven't gotten my points across as clearly as I would've liked during this thread. Hopefully they make sense and I haven't offended anyone :/

Edited by Mathew Steel

"Gofyn wyf am galon hapus, calon onest, calon l?n."

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First of all, Mathew, we know you are not naive or something like that, and there is no need for you to say something like that. :)

 

And to add, those things don't have to do anything with religion (it's mostly the case at least), but it's about some other things... On one hand, you have those educated people who have worked their asses to become doctors for example, then they see that it is not appreciated in their own country, and they have two choice - to move, or to work some other job, which would be really sad after all those years of their hard work. Also, there are those who need more money, they work all day long in their home country for little money, and they are forced to move elsewhere. Those people won't do any harm to any society.

 

On the other hand, there are plenty of those people who didn't want to work in their country, but not because it was for little money, but because they were lazy. When they move to that other country, they will be too lazy to learn the language, and not to speak about finding a job there (though there are those who manage to find a job without speaking the language if finds a job to work with people who speak their his/her language). In this case, not only that new country would give them certain amount of money each month, but they will also bring more problems. It's pretty simple - when people work, then they mind their own busyness, but if they don't have a job, then they just wonder around, and many of them will turn to crime.

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